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| David Guttery (From keystonefingrp.com) |
David R. Guttery, a registered financial consultant (RFC) at Nowlin and Associates, has met the "high standards of education, experience, and integrity" in his field. Records from Ashley Madison, however, show that Guttery has actively tried to cheat on his wife, perhaps raising questions about the "integrity" part of his certification.
It's hard to imagine a field where trust is more central than with wealth management and financial consulting. Clients essentially put their financial futures in Guttery's hands. If he screws up or acts in a reckless manner, his clients can be ruined. Perhaps clients have grounds for putting trust in Guttery, but public records indicate his wife, Maria, does not.
At Nowlin and Associates, Guttery answers to founder and managing director Charles E. Nowlin and senior vice president Justin R. Craft.
Here is information about Guttery's professional status, from the Nowlin and Associates Web site. It notes that he is president of the Keystone Financial Group in Trussville, which is affiliated with the Nowlin firm. That means Guttery provides financial services for at least two firms:
David is an Investment Advisory Representative (IAR) and holds the designations of Registered Financial Consultant (RFC®), and Chartered Asset Manager. He is also a member of the American Academy of Financial Management. He is a 1991 graduate of the University of Alabama and is the President of The Keystone Financial Group in Trussville, Alabama, which is affiliated with Nowlin and Associates in Birmingham.
This is from Guttery's biography at the Keystone Financial Group Web site:
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| Maria and Brandon Guttery (From facebook.com) |
*1991 Graduate of the Manderson School of Commerce and Business Administration, The University of Alabama, BS Finance.
*Native of Florence, Alabama.
*David, and his family currently reside in Trussville, Alabama.
*Past four term President and two term Treasurer of former Home Owners' Association.
*Member of Clearbranch United Methodist Church, past chairman of the finance committee, and current praise team member.
*Trussville Sports and Recreation Youth League Basketball Coach
*Trussville Parks and Recreation Department Board
*Founder and Director of the Trussville Recreational Youth Sports Foundation (TRYS Foundation)
Here is more about Guttery's background, showing that he and Maria Walters Guttery have one son, Brandon:
David's community involvement includes serving the Clearbranch United Methodist Church of Trussville as the vice chairman of its finance committee and as a member of its Praise Team. He also serves upon the Advisory Board of the Trussville City Schools Foundation. In the winter time, David is a youth league basketball coach with Trussville Parks and Recreation. David and his wife Maria have one son, Brandon.
Here is a link to Maria Walters Guttery's Facebook page. It appears that David Guttery has a lot going for him, much to be thankful for. So why has he fooled around on Ashley Madison. We sought comment from him for this article, but he has not responded.
Previously:
(1) Edgar C. Gentle III -- attorney at Gentle Turner Sexton and Harbison, Birmingham, AL (3/8/16)
(2) Stewart Springer -- attorney, solo practice in Birmingham, AL. (3/9/16)
(3) Richard W. "Dick" Bell -- attorney, solo practice in Birmingham, AL (3/14/16)
(4) Robert M.N. Palmer -- attorney and bar association president in Springfield, MO (3/15/16)
(5) Thomas Plouff -- attorney, who is licensed in Alabama and has a practice in Chicago (3/17/16)
(6) James F. Henry -- attorney, Bradley Arant, Birmingham (3/23/16)
(7) Michael E. Stephens -- founder, Lakeshore Foundation, Birmingham (6/20/16)
(8) James Vawter -- founding principal, Capstone Collegiate Communities (10/4/16)
(7) Michael E. Stephens -- founder, Lakeshore Foundation, Birmingham (6/20/16)
(8) James Vawter -- founding principal, Capstone Collegiate Communities (10/4/16)
(9) Randy Bates -- executive VP and member of board of directors, Golden Flake (10/5/16)
(10) Reid Carpenter -- attorney, Lightfoot Franklin White, Birmingham (10/6/16)
(11) Scott Sink -- exec. VP, McGriff Seibels Williams, Birmingham (10/11/16)
(12) Russell Byrne -- VP for information systems, Bromberg's, Birmingham (10/17/16)
(13) Rob Waudby -- district manager, Skyline Steel, Birmingham (10/24/16)
(14) Paul Wells -- VP, Protective Life, Birmingham (10/25/16)
(15) Brian Shulman -- CEO, LTS Education Systems, Birmingham (10/26/16)
(16) Peyton Lacy -- attorney, Ogletree Deakins, Birmingham (11/1/16)
(17) James Dixon -- managing director, Sterne Agee, Birmingham (11/7/16)
(18) Craig O'Dear -- partner, Bryan Cave law firm, Kansas City, MO (11/16/16)
(19) Bill Smith III -- CEO, Royal Cup Coffee, Birmingham (12/12/16)
(20) Willl Pringle -- attorney, WRP Law Firm, Birmingham (12/19/16)
50 comments:
None of this is a matter of public concern, even if true. And managing a wealth fund does not make that man of interest to to the general public, and it very definitely does not require publication of his wife's photo
The amount of doxxing you publish is completely out of proportion to anything even remotely reasonable.
I think you are attempting to extort people, and sending a signal to your remaining targets by publishing this stuff.
You are not doing right.
This guy seeks business from the public, asks them to put their money in his hands. It is a matter of public concern, whether you like it or not.
As for your statement, "I think you are attempting to extort people," I would advise caution. You have accused me of a crime, for which you have no evidence (and I doubt you even know what it means), and that is defamation per se.
I can easily look up your ID and come after you for serious dollars. Ignore my warning if you want, but you will wish you hadn't. As someone with 35 years of journalism experience, I don't take kindly to those who hide behind an anon wall and accuse me of a crime.
Bottom line: You are treading on thin ice, big time.
The pearl clutchers are out early, I see.
Question for 2:51
What evidence do you have that Mr. Schnauzer has engaged in extortion?
Roger - I enjoy your site tremendously and like your Ashley Madison Vignettes, but the reality is that you wouldn't have a defamation case for someone stating "I think you are attempting to extort people" - that would not be classified as defamation as it's within comments on a blog. It's an interesting world that we live in now online - gone are the safeguards of the old defamation and libel.
Hey, 2:51 --
You apparently have palpitations about what is of public concern and what is not, what pictures get published and what don't. But here is a reality that seems to have escaped you: This isn't your blog; you don't have a say in the matter. That you seem to think you do, suggests to me that you are a pompous ass.
This is Mr. Schnauzer's blog, he obviously puts a lot of thought and work into it, and he can walk the walk and talk the talk -- he has a journalism degree from one of the top schools in the country, and he has worked in the field for 35 years or so.
It's Mr. Schnauzer's blog, and he makes the calls on these issues. Most of us understand, and accept, that. If you don't, try starting your own blog.
When you started this "series" you claimed you were gonna expose "elites." You are now down to "account managers." You have exposed yourself as a fraud, only doing this to draw traffic---so seeking something for something embarassing, it would seem.
"Account Managers." Lol. We eagerly await you exposing the Red Cross Bell Ringers next.
What a joke this "blog" has become the last couple of years. Small wonder your family tried to have you declared a ward of the state.
What is a pearl clutcher?
https://pearlclutchers.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/what-is-a-pearl-clutcher/
4:27 --
I didn't mean to imply I had a defamation case right this moment. But I did mean to advise caution because the commenter is walking a thin line.
I'm not aware of any law that says a comment cannot be defamatory because it was made at a blog forum. Are you?
4:53 --
You apparently have problems with reading comprehension, and your knowledge of the wealth-management field must be near zero. The term "elite" goes way beyond a mere job description.
Nowlin & Associates is a major outfit in Birmingham and I know for sure that they handle financial affairs for a number of elite clients. Plus, as the post says, David Guttery is president of its own financial firm. He's the top dog, numero uno, and I would say that gives him elite status, especially in a high-end area like Trussville.
You apparently are a smart-ass, but you aren't very smart. Better luck next time.
Not sure where you get the stones to insult account managers because I doubt you have the smarts to be one.
A, 2:51, extortion is a crime. You tell some one you want them to "pay" or you will tell some thing about them or do them harm, etc. there is no evidence L.S. has in any way shape or form tried to extort anything from anyone. There is no evidence he has or is going to not publish about individuals if they provide him with "some consideration" for not publishing. In case you haven't figured it out yet, blogging is a form of journalism these days. The American Constitution provides for Freedom of the press and freedom of Speech as long as that speech is true. If its not, we move into the realm of slander/libel, etc. Haven't heard anyone sue L.S. yet.
Now some people might want to respond and say, not me. Some people might be of the opinion, any answer is giving credence to the information. Some people hope if they ignore it and tell their family and friends its not me privately they hope all will go away.
When some one has a public positions such as those named in this blog as being A.M customers, you run the risk of being scrunized. If you use your family as an e.g. of what a good guy you are and those family members went along for the ride, then its fair game. They all benefited from the "advertising" of the public figure. Would I name the kid? probably not, but I'm not L.S. and this isn't my blog. He is free to do as he pleases. If people don't like what he writes, they are free to not read this blog.
When people signed up with A.M. and were professionals, it might not impact how they perform the duties of their position, but it does raise the issue of their judgement. Most of these people require "sound judgement" for their positions. They have failed to demonstrate that. You don't sign up for a public cheating service and then say I have good judgement.
Elites? so what are they. It depends upon where you sit in life. For many the elites are the 1%ers. For others, elites are those who draw a 6 figure salary, have a roof over their head, nice cares, vacations, etc. It all just depends. It can be some one who stands out in their community of whatever sort. an account manger can be an "elite". Account managers can be worth tens of millions of dollars and have a lot of political clout so in Alabama an account manager could be an elite. In New York city you'd have to be a billionaire or a socially connected person to be an elite. In some cities, just being an almost millionaire qualifies as being an elite. In a small town, if the highest paid person is the postal worker, than in that town that person is the elite.
A picture of his kid?
Sounds like you're begging for someone to show up at your motel room door with a fucking hammer.
Memo to 2983, etc. --
I have invited you to contact me directly, and you refuse to do so. You claim to have a certain expertise regarding Ashley Madison data, especially re: Bill Smith III. But you have given me no reason to believe that.
Either call me directly or bail out because you come across as a con man, at this point. BTW, David Guttery most certainly is on the list of paying customers. If you, or someone else, can't see that, you don't have the right list or you have poor/selective vision.
Call Mr. Guttery as his financial firm, and he will tell you he's on the list -- at least he will if he has any integrity left.
I've explained here multiple times how I've done my research on this, and no one has successfully claimed yet that I've gotten anything wrong. If my explanations aren't good for you . . . tough. You haven't explained a thing to me, about who you are and how you are qualified to make the claims you do.
I'm at the point where I believe you are a fraud, and your comments are toast, until you prove you have legit knowledge re: AM.
5:33 -- You sound like the classic postmodern American parent. You probably do a shitty job of raising your child, but you act like a psycho when anyone else raises issues involving a child -- a child you probably don't even know.
You suggest that it's proper behavior for a man to use a hammer to go after a blogger who published a picture of his child. The photo came from his mom's Facebook page and does nothing to portray the child in a negative light.
So why again would it be OK, with you, for David Guttery to come after me with a hammer?
"The photo came from his mom's Facebook page and does nothing to portray the child in a negative light."
Can you even read what you write? That is seriously uncool. You went after his family, attaching them to a story about another persons possible misdeeds, in a way that could embarrass them.
It's just wrong.
What do you know about parenting? Yes, I'm a father, and proud of it. You have no children, so don't start throwing your expertise around when you don't have any. Publicly shaming a child from the supposed sins of their parents is immoral and cruel. It leaves lasting scars, not that you care.
I don't condone it, obviously, but I would completely understand if ANY of the men or women you shame here came after you. You're a wretched hypocrite. You're destructive and nasty. You don't care about the truth. You only care about yourself.
5:33 --
Thanks for proving that you are the kind of person I thought you were. You don't have a clue about teaching morals or ethics to your own kids, but you try to shove your values down our throats. Typical.
Look at your own ethics: You seem fine with somebody coming after a journalist who reported about that accurately and fairly, giving them every opportunity in advance to explain themselves. You truly are a sicko, and like most sickos, you don't even recognize it.
@5:55 --
"Another person's" misdeeds. We're talking about the husband/father here. You don't like his misdeeds being reported because you probably do the same kind of thing. Makes you uncomfortable.
I can't get on board with dragging the family into it.
You should limit your criticism and exposure to the person you think did wrong, shouldn't you? If your complaint is that they hurt their families, why would you compound the harm?
Memo to 2983 --
Never asked you to be part of "my project." You contacted me and made claims regarding Bill Smith III, and I simply asked you to contact me directly, partly so I can determine if you have any credentials to make such claims. If you are going to attack my work, I want to know who you are, to see if you really know what you are talking about or maybe you have an agenda to fulfill.
I could not care less about who you are or what IT equipment you have or what data you have. As I've written many times here, I have the paid list of AM customers, and IT pros who have helped me use it.
And no one, including you, has proven that anything in my reports is inaccurate. I've given you every opportunity to prove something is wrong, but you won't take it, and you won't say who you are or describe your credentials. You are still welcome to call, but it's obvious you won't do it, which suggests you have credibility problems. Buh bye.
Mr Shuler, You are a poor writer. Mizzou must be embarassed that they conferred a degree upon you.
What is your motive for contacting these people, and publishing photos of their family, and their addresses? It doesn't make sense. Who is it supposed to benefit? How does publishing the names and photos of family aid your motive in reporting? How does that information forward your reporting?
Do you tell people you are going to publish photos of their family if they don't talk to you in some way?
Could you publish your boilerplate letter?
@8:07 --
Are you really so stupid that you have to ask this question? One basic of journalism is that you try to cover all sides of the story. It's critical on a story like this, or any story, that subjects have an opportunity to respond -- to answer questions or at least make a comment. That's pretty much Journalism 101.
And you really have to ask why I publish the names and photos of family members? This is a family issue. Ashley Madison has made a business out of trying to undermine families. Aside from Russia likely electing our president, I can't think of a more important story in American life right now. Journalism is about piecing together facts -- with names, photos, addresses, etc. all being part of the story. When a house burns down, any real reporter will publish the address. If anyone is hurt, his name is published.
This isn't complicated stuff, but I continue to be amazed at how clueless you and others are about simple journalism. I don't have a "boilerplate letter," but I could easily publish a sample of an e-mail I've sent to an AM customer. If you contact me and give me your ID and why you want a copy of such a letter, I'd be glad to send it. Given the tone of your letter, I don't feel real comfortable sharing information with someone who is so simple-minded. But I might reconsider. You have essentially accused me of underhanded ethics, maybe even a crime, so I don't have much of a trust or respect level for you.
@6:49 --
See my reply above.
No one needs any "credentials" to deal with the Ashley databases. I have basic knowledge of SQL and Linux/Unix, which is all that's required to work with the data. I used MySQL running on a Mac laptop. And the credit card transactions span 2600 CSV files which I can search using common Unix commands. It takes me seconds to determine who paid what and when. No "IT pros" required.
I stand by my comments about Mr. Smith. There is a "William E. Smith" in California who spent an improbable $1512.89 in less than 10 weeks in the site. That equals about 600 sent messages. Does that sound right to you?
There are 430 other transactions that were conducted by people named "William Smith". I'm sure one of those guys lives in AL. Maybe one of them is your "William E. Smith". Could be, but the only one for sure is in CA, and I'm done helping you. I expect if you're this rude in public comments with someone trying to assist you with the data, it isn't likely we'll hit it off on the phone.
Your work on this is amateurish and sloppy. Hopefully someone you wrongly accuse will take some sort of legal action against you. You more than deserve it.
And very classy attacking me in the comments section without having the guts to publish my original comment. So professional.
Shuler, you're a morally bankrupt fool. This isn't about a house burning down. This is about men who you accuse of cheating on their wives. You are well aware of what you are doing, and why. Stop pretending this is anything except an attack on a class of people who you hate. You think they are all out to get you. That they are all responsible for the disasters in your life. In fact, you are the only master of your own misfortunes. You're a paranoid hack, Shuler. Nothing more than that. You can rant all your want about how we're stupid and don't understand the world. But you're the one living in a motel screaming at the tempest. Delete your blog, you pathetic fool.
If you ever attacked me and my family as you've attacked this man, I know exactly what I'd do. You're rolling the dice everyday, Shuler.
There is no equivalency between stealing and releasing millions of personal records and blackmailing thousands of people (also a felony) on the one hand, and signing up for a rip-off sex website (not a crime of any kind in most places). You never report this.
2983 --
Well, I'm glad I prodded you a little because your true colors are shining now. You're "done helping me"? Hah! You never were helping me in the first place. You claim I'm "rude" to someone who was trying to assist me? You never were trying to assist me. No. 1, I don't need an assist from you, and I never asked for one. No. 2, I gave you every opportunity to prove who you are and why I should listen to you -- to prove your bona fides -- but you couldn't do it. That makes me think you have no bona fides. I published your original comment, so you can't even get that right. And you hide behind a fake name and prove to be a con man, but you are going to tell me about professionalism. Hah, what a joke you are! You wouldn't know class if it kicked you in the ass. (Hey, that rhymes.)
BTW, the William E Smith III I wrote about is on the paying AM list, and he is CEO of Royal Cup Coffee, just as I reported. I suspect you know that already, and you are butt-hurt because you haven't laid a glove on my work.
Scram, a-hole, and look for someone else to con. Your weak act won't play here.
e.a.f. --
Thanks for a voice of reason. It is most welcome. I guess reason can be found in Canada these days, but not so much in U.S. Look who we "elected" president. Better yet, look who we allowed Russia to pick as our president, and we don't have the "stones" to do anything about it.
I've written this before, but it might be well to repeat here: I've had probably 6-8 individuals I've contacted for responses to their presence at AM. We communicated via phone or email, they explained their situations, I thought their explanations were legit, and I did not run their stories. I'm not going to give out their names because that would defeat the whole purpose of protecting their identity. But they know who they are, I know who they are, and they know how I've really handled this. It's a small example of how I've bent over backwards to be fair and thorough in my reporting.
Hope you are doing well. Is it just me, or does it sound like a lot of these AM commenters have an ulterior motive -- as in the fear that they eventually will be outed? I have a hard time understanding these concerns about some "account executive" they don't even know -- and his wife and child whom they probably don't know. Makes me think there is some kind of intimidation game afoot, trying to get me off the trail. What do you think? I value your judgment, and I know I may or may not be reading this correctly.
@7:05 --
Poor writer? How so? Care to share a few examples with us?
BTW, Mizzou did not just "confer a degree" on me. I earned it, and I paid for a major chunk of it myself.
@9:54 --
Are you saying I've stolen and released documents and engaged in blackmail? What evidence do you have of that? Let's hear it.
Mason --
Those are big words for a guy who hides behind his first (probably fake) name. Why don't you call me at (205) 381-5673 and maybe I'll take your concerns seriously. Otherwise, you are just another coward.
@9:47 --
Give us an example where I've accused any man of cheating on his wife. Let's see if you can come up with one.
Mr. Schnauzer --
It's obvious to me that these "pearl clutching" comments are from a coordinated band of individuals (probably just a few people because many of the comments sound the same) who feel your AM reporting is stepping on toes. That means some big fish (and some not so big fish) are concerned about being outed.
Their solution to the problem is the old classic -- kill the messenger (figuratively, not literally). It's much easier for them to do this than to examine their own behavior and realize either (A) They made a big out-of-character mistake; or (B) They are just sorry human beings to begin with.
I applaud your willingness to engage these cretins to some extent. I surely wouldn't do it.
I agree with @10:58. These people have a sense of entitlement that is monumental. They think news reports are supposed to be about dark people who commit crimes in the street or lower-class whites with their taste for meth and heroin. They just can't believe you are exposing the underbelly of "their kind." Note the aggression in their tones -- coming after you with a hammer, actually threatening physical violence. That's a sign that they are afraid of Legal Schnauzer, very afraid.
This might be a small cadre of people, or even bots, who have been hired by Ashley Madison and assigned to scare you into silence. Glad to see it isn't working.
I'm not sure real people are behind these inane comments. That's part of the reason they never accept your offer to discuss via phone.
I'm a regular reader, but not a regular commenter. Here's a little bit different take on any of these people who have been exposed. When you leave" tracks", be it ink on a line, text, recording, cell phone records, e-mail, or whatever, you take the chance of someone seeing it and exposing you. These people who have been exposed appear to be well educated and successful, but qualify as world class dumbasses when they SIGNED up on AM. No doubt they realize that now, but for the next guy or gal that interested in hooking up with somebody….be discreet.
The Trumpist troll are out in full force trying to distract you from the Pryor / Sessions reporting.
Roger, I love your blog. But these Ashley Madison stories seem a bit ... tawdry for someone who proudly and fearlessly takes on the most powerful political interests in this state, and who has gone to jail for his professional principles in the battle to expose corruption.
No offense, but your journalism degree and decades of experience are wasted highlighting the probable hypocrisy of a bunch of rich, entitled, middle-aged, white guys who may - or may not - have cheated on their wives sometime in the last decade.
LS Why don't you expose some non-lawyers? Police officers, business people, doctors and so on? Other abusers of power. Fuck them in the ass. There must be dozens!
These pearl clutchers are mad because other people are clutching these pearl clutchers family jewels.
Roger, it really sounds like you've got a bad case of Russia-Trump troll and/or bot harassment trying to keep you away from Dirty Judge Pryor. They're worse than fleas!
A. 9:47 pm We have an old saying up here in Canada, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean it isn't happening to you". don't know if you've heard it in the U.S.A. but there are lots of us who use the line here.
Given some of the comments written lately on the blog by visitors, I'd suggest some of them might be a tad over the top. The mainstream bloggers in British Columbia, do not permit those type of comments and they are edited out. Some bloggers are some what keen to keep people on topic and will edit out those who aren't. Profanity is always edited out. Its not polite.
What the election of Trump is doing to Americans is giving voice to what has been just below the surface. Some of it spilled over into Canada also. Some of the commenting here is not acceptable. However, given the President elect has said any number of things which qualify as bullying behaviour, it does not surprise me that more of it is being seen on blogs. Telling some one you're going to come with a hammer is so not on. A blogger in British Columbia, Laila Yuille, who had that sort of threat leveled at her in B.C., after they blew up her blog, went to THE RCMP and they investigated. (she writes about the activities of the provincial government by reporting the facts not the myths and is a serious opponent to a $12B dam being built in our province.)
What surprises me is the level of violence by the police in the area's you have lived. Even if 50% of what you wrote were only true, its still in my opinion, would be a gross abuse of police authority and power. Well known gangsters in our province aren't treated like you are, by the police.
It is my opinion that much of what we see on your blog is redirected anger. People can not always vent their anger at what they ought to, so they direct it somewhere it is safe to do so. A blogger, is frequently a safe person to direct anger towards, they never see them, don't know them. Bloggers tend to write not retaliate with physical violence.
My suggestion would be is to cease to respond and publish the most outrageous of the comments. Editing would be a good thing. Engaging some of these people is simply feeding into the frenzie. People feel empowered by the election of Trump. If he can say what he does regarding people he doesn't like, they feel they can do the same. Trump's behaviour, in my opinion, is not that of an adult. It is more like a boy in arrested development.
Recently I received a joke, it was a picture of George Bush with a caption above which said, "and you thought I was an idiot".
Canada is fortunate. We voted out of office a Prime Minister who had shades of Trump. The current P.M. Justin Trudeau has a moderate, civilized view of matters. He, as his father, is interested in a social safety net. He implemented payments to families in need to the tune of up to $600 per month per child, if necessary. Yes, it going to put the country in debt, but at least more children will not be living below the poverty line. Children are the future of any country. They need to be the first priority of any nation. Our nation is far from perfect and has a lot of work to do but we are on our way. The U.S.A. may be looking at more poverty with less of a social safety net. That does not bode well for its citizens.
The nature of these postings by you regarding A.M. could be viewed as a method of keeping people "honest". it says you engage in inappropriate behaviour while saying your an "upstanding, godfearing citizen" there is a good chance you will be found out. People who go ahead with questionable behaviour, in my opinion, have questionable judgement. People with questionable judgement do not make for good leaders.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Don't take the bait, Roger. You think anyone cares this much about twenty cheating nobodies in Alabama?
You poked the hornet's nest of Trump/GOP power and they're sending their disinformation corps to mess with you.
Stay on target.
Speaking of "pearl clutching" who said this, right on this blog, in the comment section?
"At one time, I didn’t think I was capable of killing another human being, but I definitely am capable of that now — and McGarity is one of several people I wouldn’t mind seeing their brains splattered over the sidewalk. My preference, I guess, would be for someone else to do the shooting, but if it’s left to me, I could do it now — after what’s been done to us."
You did, Roger Shuler.
@5:37 --
So what's your point?
These cheaters thanks so much for lying bare their credentials!
More like this Mr. Shuler, much more like this.
Very good job Roger! Make these people pay! I am sure they grab children. If these were people on my road my god I'd be angry.
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