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| (From Al Jazeera) |
Those are just two examples of the many bright, accomplished, prominent individuals who were stupid enough to sign up for a Web site that should have been readily perceived as a scam.
The university president is not your standard low-key, ivory-tower type. He has deep international interests, with connections to China, Thailand, Ghana, Nigeria, and several parts of Europe. Before accepting his current position, this individual served as business dean at a university in St. Louis. The business school is named for an individual from one of America's most prominent political families. While there, the dean was named one of the areas "Most Influential Leaders" by the St. Louis Business Journal.
An expert on building corporate alliances, this academic leader forged relationships with Boeing, Bank of America, Edward Jones, Monsanto, Wal-Mart and Thomas Reuters. Those are some of the biggest names in the Missouri business firmament. The university president also serves as vice chair of the board at a capital-finance company that manages more than $3 billion in assets.
If you follow business news closely, you probably have seen this individual. He has appeared on Anderson Cooper 360, the CBS Evening News, and St. Louis affiliates for FOX, ABC and NBC. His commentaries have appeared in USA TODAY and on public radio’s Marketplace. He consults for leading Fortune 500 companies in the areas of strategy, leadership, corporate responsibility and market positioning. He is a former consultant to the World Bank and the United Nations Development Program (UNDP).
As for the football player, you have to be a pretty special talent to spend eight years in the NFL, and this guy probably would have played longer if he had not been hampered by hand, knee, shoulder, and elbow injuries. A linebacker, he led the St. Louis Rams in tackles three years in a row and showed so much promise that the team signed him to a five-year, $24.7-million contract extension.
In other words, this guy was not just a spare part. He was close to becoming a star and Pro Bowl performer until injuries got in the way.
Our research on the Ashley Madison list for Missouri is ongoing, and we are looking into specifics about AM account activity for the university president and former NFL standout. We will hold off on full identifiers until our research is complete, but that (and much more) is coming soon about the sleazy Web site that ensnared a host of well-heeled clients, who should have known better than to get involved.
Hmmm . . . a university president. I wonder what kind of grades he would receive on Ashley Madison.
ReplyDeleteWhich is more interesting, the Alabama list or the Missouri list?
ReplyDeleteThat's a close call, @11:37. I guess the Alabama list is more interesting to me because I'm more familiar with the names, places and affiliations that turn up there. But the Missouri list is getting pretty darned good, even for someone who has not kept up with this state's news very closely for 30-plus years.
ReplyDeleteIn both states, this seems to be mostly a "white guy" endeavor. I'm finding a few blacks in both states, but not very many. Alabama has a ton of "wealth manager" types on the list. Both have a lot of lawyers, but I think Missouri might be taking the lead on that front.
Also, lots of accountants, scientists, engineers, consultants, and high-level sales types in both states. So far, I'm finding more government people in Missouri than in Alabama.
I know this will fall on deaf ears and in full disclosure I do not think this should be a topic for this blog, but if you must "out" people I like this method of describing the individual without giving their names. Yes, it may be that one only need to research to find the name, but that will be up to the reader and not you.
ReplyDeleteAgain...probably falling on dear ears, but one readers thoughts that might make this more palatable to the many that have said they do not think you should be covering this. Yes...,it's your blog. Just one long time readers opinion.
Thanks for sharing your opinion, @11:50. As I mention in the post, I will be including the names in future posts, once all of my research is complete. I wrote this, for now, just to give readers an idea of the type of high-level people on the list. I wouldn't say your opinion fell on deaf ears. Your thoughts are well stated, and I respect them. We just happen to disagree on the best approach to this story.
ReplyDeleteI hope like heck you're letting these people know before puttting their names on here using good email addresses to notify. They obviously are probably not checking the ones in the hack...
ReplyDeleteAs a Missouri resident and 30-year employee of higher ed in the state, I know from your description the identity of this university president. Don't know what your plans are with the story going forward, but this is a shocking and very sad situation. This is a person with an impeccable reputation, and his appointment as presidency was quite newsworthy. If this develops into a full-blown story, I feel certain it will be greatly disruptive on his campus and beyond. As you note, this individual carries a major footprint in corporate and international-education circles. I was astonished to read your post and realize right off who you were writing about. Hope this somehow works out for all concerned because this could give higher ed in Missouri a black eye that is not needed.
ReplyDeleteDo you know if this university president is married?
ReplyDeleteThe most recent bio I can find says he is married, with three daughters.
ReplyDeleteHah! You aren't going to fool any real NFL fans, Schnauzer. I know exactly who this player is, based on the information you give. Don't know why a guy with a $25-million contract in his back pocket would screw around on Ashley Madison. But who can explain this stuff? People are stupid--or at least they do stupid things.
ReplyDeleteI won't break the story on your site by giving the name. But look forward to reading the details soon.
So wait....I thought the entire context of this was leadership type of people...political, legal, corporate,etc. How does a former NFL player fit in to those groups? Has this, as I feared, just turned in to a witch hunt for anyone that has a prominent name? Come on LS, you're better than that. Leave that to the National Enquirer rag.
ReplyDeleteSo, let me get this straight. You're about to "out" a former NFL linebacker that lives in your area...and you're calling the people that signed up for AM dumb? You don't pull on supermans cape LS. I don't care how big you are...I bet he could make the injuries to your wife look minimal in comparison. I would question YOUR decision making process on this one. One word--dumb!
ReplyDeletefor some using something like A.M. seems O.K. because they think no one will find out. They would have used a sex trade worker, but that is no longer politically correct, so this is about as simple. Unfortunately, the whole thing blew up.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, listing with A.M. is a question of judgement. If poor judgement doesn't matter in your job, then it doesn't matter you were playing around on the site. Case in point, the foot ball player. he's a football player, it doesn't matter. Others, their judgement needs to be firing on all cylinders. The question is did this activity impact their job performance? By all accounts I've read here about the academic, his judgement on the job was sound. Does he get a pass, maybe. Judges, cops, teachers, social workers, politicians, no they don't get a pass. Sports stars, actors, etc. who cares what they do in their person lives.
Roger, as a long-time reader of your blog, I have to object to this sort of coverage.
ReplyDeleteI have been hired by a number of businesses and institutions to advise them on the security implications of the Ashley Madison data theft. I can tell you that there are several versions of the data floating around, and that it is inconsistent and filled with names and email addresses of individuals who did not and could not have been using Ashley Madison.
I have found personal information for individuals that had been deceased for several years, listed as paid users. I have seen the data altered to both remove individuals and add others. There are literally millions of email addresses and credit card transactions that simply could not be valid.
I think you are risking a great deal by publishing information that you must know cannot be objectively verified.
Have you learned of any details, details that might reside much closer to home?
ReplyDeleteIf you want to know the truth, you have to ask.
Is this a Doxing blog now? Giving details of private, nonpublic individuals using data that was hacked? Are you going to report next on the individuals exposed to be HIV+ through the HZone hack? I think you're on a slippery slope LS venturing into a morally gray area here when you out private individuals who have committed no crime.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's a morally gray area, @9:59. The U.S. Supreme Court has found that journalists lawfully can report on data that others have illegally obtained. I've already said that I have no interest in reporting on health information, and the university president in question shows that we aren't dealing with totally private individuals. He has held a major leadership position at a public institution, he has forged alliances with public companies, and so on. I'm not aware of any standard of journalism that says reporting must be limited to stories about criminal conduct.
ReplyDeleteHave no idea what you are talking about, @10:53. Care to elaborate?
ReplyDelete@7:49, I've consulted with a number of knowledgeable tech people who have a different take on this from yours. My understanding is that certain parts of the data, especially for non-paying customers, is shaky. But I've been dealing with data for paid users, and my sources say that information is solid, and I've seen no sign of anyone being able to show that it isn't.
ReplyDelete@6:08, in my view, I'm not "outing" anyone. They've already been outed by the Impact Team, which took the data and put it in a public place, where anyone can access it, although it takes some tech skills. I didn't say the football player lives in my area at this time. I don't know where he lives. You think an ex football player is going to beat up or kill a journalist and ruin his (the player's) life over this? I suspect the football player is much smarter than that.
ReplyDeleteAside from that, if I were paralyzed by fear I never would have started an investigative blog in the first place.
I have heard the same thing as @7:49. People have found the list on the dark web and added names/transaction dates, etc. to blackmail people they know. While you may have not been able to find anyone say it isn't solid, do you have proof that it is? Do you have the credit card records of these people. Can you say with 100% certainty that everything on here is correct with the same certainty that you can says laws were not followed in your defamation case? You can prove one...but not the other. In the meantime, people's lives are on the line over data you can't 100% verify.
ReplyDeleteYou're on a slippery slope here LS. These are big people with big pockets. When a long time reader like e a f even calls you out...you should really rethink.
I haven't set exact parameters, @3:36. Yes, I'm looking mostly at high-level professional types, but we're also looking at anyone who happens to be prominent in the public eye. I didn't expect to find an NFL player on the list, but a major one popped up, and I think that is significant. This guy was in the league for eight years and signed a $25-million contract extension, so he was very prominent in his field. There are few people on earth who stay in the NFL that long and make that kind of money. That makes him an extremely prominent figure in his community. I don't know what he's doing with his life now, but I suspect he's more than just a "dumb jock." He went to a major university--don't know if he graduated--but he certainly has the mental capacity and financial resources to accomplish quite a bit beyond football, if he sets his mind to it.
ReplyDeleteI understand you have heard something, @11:01, but that does not make it accurate. I have worked extensively with knowledgeable people about the technology and data here, and they say key parts of it are right on target. We've provided details about Rob Campbell, Chuck Dean, and Artur Davis--showing their transactions on the site, when and where they signed up, etc.--that no one has been able to seriously dispute.
ReplyDeleteI've written at some length here about my process for handling this story, and I will stick to that.
One other thought, @11:01, I'm not aware of e.a.f. calling me out. She certainly is entitled to disagree with me on any subject, but I'm not aware that she's disagreed with my approach to this subject. If I missed something, feel free to bring it to my attention.
ReplyDeleteHi its e.a.f. I am not "calling out" Legal Schnauzer. His reporting on this subject is actually fine. He hasn't named names. If people can figure out who the subjects of this post are, well they are a lot more knowledgeable than I.
ReplyDeleteThey might also have more time on their hands than most people.
The matter for me is, it is a question of judgement, for those who went on the site. That lack of judgement may be indicative of their lack of judgement, in general, and it may impact on how they do their jobs. There are those who can compartitlize their lives, but the majority can't. So for those who played around on the site and their jobs require "good judgement", they need to find new jobs.
My previous comment regarding the football player, he doesn't need "good judgement" in his job. Perhaps skills to do his job, but "good judgement" as we understand it in the world around us, not so much.\
Now the other guy, if there was no impact on his job performance, then fine, but again does he occupy a position which requires "good judgement".
Now only in American can we find all this stuff about these types of sites and sex. American politicians and the voters in general do seem to take a big interest in people's sex lives. That maybe because the country was based on "puritanical" beliefs and there are a lot of politicians who base their "reputations" on "family values".
In the end, beyond does the person's conduct impact on the "good judgement" required for their job/position, whether they are on the site or not, is between them, their significant others, their god.
It is beyond me, why so many are so interested in who was playing on A.M. many of us never heard of the site until all of this hit the "press".
The issue as I understand it on Legal S. is one of hypocracy. People proporting to be "good boys" and oh, look what they were doing in the back room. If they get outed, they out to have thought about that before they went on the site, but in a lot of cases these people think they are smarter than the rest, they are entitled, etc. In this day and age if you want to keep a secret, keep it to yourself, use an old fashion type writer and carrier pigeon. Anything else, some one will find out.
Here is what e.a.f said last night in a post:
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, listing with A.M. is a question of judgement. If poor judgement doesn't matter in your job, then it doesn't matter you were playing around on the site. Case in point, the foot ball player. he's a football player, it doesn't matter. Others, their judgement needs to be firing on all cylinders. The question is did this activity impact their job performance? By all accounts I've read here about the academic, his judgement on the job was sound. Does he get a pass, maybe. Judges, cops, teachers, social workers, politicians, no they don't get a pass. Sports stars, actors, etc. who cares what they do in their person lives.
Sounds like she's saying there is no need to call out everyone.
I was going to respond about what e.a.f. actually wrote, but she's already responded and said it better than I could. She and I actually are pretty much on the same page. I agree that judgment is key here, and I've written that somewhere--although I can't find it at the moment. It might have been in the comments somewhere.
ReplyDeleteActually, it just occurred to me that I raised the issue of judgment in the interview with Kristen v. Brown of Fusion. Here is part of the section where she quoted me:
While people use Ashley Madison for all kinds of reasons—in open relationships, for example, or to mentally escape abusive ones—Shuler had a hard time accepting that people might use the site for any reason other than a lack of moral character.
“I’ve been married for 26 years and I treat marriage seriously,” he said. “I’m just amazed that in this country where people seem to trumpet their Christian values we treat christian marriage so shabbily. A lot of people on the Alabama list are people who make judgments about us all the time, so it’s relevant to expose what kind of judgement they use themselves.”
I think those last couple of sentences are very close to what e.a.f. is saying.
So you're saying that you've never made a "poor" judgement? Is so, did that preclude you from doing a good job for whomever you might have been working for? Realize that you were a professor and very respected sports journalist in this state. During that time you NEVER made a poor judgment? Never? And did tbat affect your professionalism? I have a feeling you will say no. So, then why assume that applies to others?
ReplyDeleteWhere do I suggest that I've never made a poor judgment? I don't. Obviously we all use poor judgment, make mistakes, in our lives. AM, in my view, goes beyond just poor judgment. It's intentionally trying to cheat someone, the person who should be pretty darned important in your life. It's about poor judgment, questionable character, financial stupidity, and more.
ReplyDeleteBTW, I've never been a professor. I was an editor, in various positions, during the almost 20 years I worked at UAB.
Haha! I cant believe someone is still writing about this!! News flash: this story is old news!
ReplyDeleteHaha! No it isn't old news. Fusion wrote about it just last week. The Toronto Star wrote about two days ago. Multiple class-action lawsuits are popping up, including at least two that originated with a law firm in Birmingham.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't close to being over; it's just warming up.
You realize the Toronto star piece piece was actually talking about how the furor over the hack has actually died down and that any publicity that Ashley Madison has picked up has actually caused the membership to increase? So, by highlighting certain people and bringing this back to the public, you may be encouraging others to join. Nice!
ReplyDeleteI mean...did you even read the article? It was more about cyber security than anything to do with people on the site.
Yes, I did read the story, and it counters @4:54's contention that the story is "old news," that no one is writing about it anymore. The Fusion and Toronto Star stories show that the story still is very much in the news. In fact, the Fusion story largely contradicts the Star's claims that the story is dying down.
ReplyDeleteAs for me, I don't necessarily take cues from what other publications do or do not write. If I feel a story is important and needs to be covered--and it touches on issues we cover here at Legal Schnauzer--I'm going to cover it. Coverage on Ashley Madison has quieted down, in part, because the amount of data is massive, and most news outlets aren't able to go through it. It's a hard story to decipher, so a lot of reporters don't bother to try.
We've put in the effort and discovered a major story about powerful and moneyed elites who made major use of the site. No one else has covered that angle of the story, but we will.
Plus, as we've already shown, the lists include a number of mainstream news people, so they have an incentive to turn a blind eye.
Ashely Madison is like, so yesterday. Check out the bitches over at specialrelationships.com How can you ignore profiles like: "Unhappily married mature professional woman seeking discreet sensual adult conversation, maybe more... A little about me I LOVE being outdoors! I truly enjoy going camping, hunting, fishing, swimming and especially hiking. I travel a lot for work so I get the opportunity to explore many places! Being away from the obligations at the office and at home during the weekdays & outside under the sun and surrounded by nature really turns me on and make me feel alive! I'm always open to trying new things. P.S. Ask me about my Golden Shower Fetish!"
ReplyDeleteEvery normal, red blooded male lawyer secretly dreams of being pissed on & sexually humiliated the way he pisses on everybody at work, right?